Navigating Impostor Syndrome and Nurturing Growth Mindset: Interview with Carolyn Gish

Impostor Syndrome is often described as the ‘fear of being exposed as a professional fraud’.

Even professionals who have been in the field for decades, working with high-end nutrition clients and delivering outstanding results, may doubt their abilities and feel like they don’t belong.

In fact, research shows that 70% of people in professional positions sometimes suffer from Impostor Syndrome, which can lead to missed opportunities, decreased self-esteem, and burnout.

But what does Impostor Syndrome really feel like? Does social media play a role in it? How can you flip the script and relabel Impostor Syndrome as Growth Mindset?

Dive into it all with Carolyn Gish, Founder of Empower Wellness, certified Nutritional Therapist, Holistic Nutritionist, Connection and Communication Coach at The Health Sciences Academy, in an exclusive interview with Maurice Castelijn, CEO at The Health Sciences Academy.

In this candid conversation, Carolyn shares her personal experience with Impostor Syndrome, plus some amazing practical tips that you can apply instantly – along with lots of real-life examples!

Read as you listen or on the go: Here’s the full interview for you

Maurice Castelijn, CEO – The Health Sciences Academy
Carolyn Gish, Nutritional Therapist and Holistic Nutritionist

Maurice Castelijn

So hello! Here we are, together with another podcast, and this time it’s with Carolyn Gish. Now Carolyn is a Communication and Connection Coach here at The Health Science Academy, but she’s also a Level 4 B.A.N.K. ™ Trainer and Coach. Carolyn knows a lot about communication, and today’s topic is Impostor Syndrome.

So welcome, Carolyn.

Carolyn Gish

Great to be here. It’s awesome! I’m excited.

Maurice Castelijn

So are we, because Impostor Syndrome is one of those things that many of us have struggled with in the past, or maybe you still feel that. I have experienced it in the past myself… Carolyn, I’m certain that you would have felt it in the past yourself.

Carolyn Gish 

Oh, absolutely! I still struggle with it. I don’t know that anyone absolutely 100% gets over it. It’s the challenge of being a person that gets in their head a lot.

Maurice Castelijn

Now let’s provide some context, Carolyn. So you’ve been running a successful company associated with nutrition over the past nearly 2 decades. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Carolyn Gish

Yeah, I started in nutrition back in 2006 after being in banking. But due to burnout and stress, I transitioned into health and wellness. I went through school and then started my own practice, actually working with a chiropractor at the time. Very lucky to have had that opportunity. 

When you first graduate, you have so much knowledge in your head that you just want to teach everyone everything. And I think Impostor Syndrome goes back to then because I wanted to prove myself. 

I wasn’t really looking at what the client needed. I was looking at what I felt I needed to say so that they thought I was smart enough to influence them and give them the information they needed to make a difference in their life.

So from that, I went on to work at another clinic, and then had the opportunity in about 2011 to work at a corporation for 5 years, actually rotating in and out of a camp and being the wellness person there. 

Now that I think about it, I was helping a lot of the people there with Impostor Syndrome. It was a tough environment. You are under scrutiny all the time. So there’s a lot of stress and a lot of proving yourself.

We talked about having sort of an alter ego. I kind of brought that back then. I’ve been listening to this book on alter egos, I brought that to that environment of working in that 5 years because I had to be a different person. Being in an 80% dominated male environment, I had to be really tough.

As my dad used to say, “You gotta have mud on your boots.”

So, I learned to do shift work to know what it was like to be a shift worker. Since I didn’t do that before, I needed to kind of earn my spot there.

Maurice Castelijn 

So what kind of doubts did you have, you know, like, how how did that make you feel operating in that kind of environment?

Carolyn Gish

Well, I think the doubts were around: “Could I make the changes that were necessary?” I knew I could, but there were days when I wondered, “How do I know what they should be eating overnight when they’re awake all night long.”

I thought I did and said, “Yeah, yeah, I got it. I can tell through my teeth. They’re gonna have a full meal. And then they’re gonna do this, and then they’re gonna do that.” And the guys looked at me saying, “I don’t think so.”

Then I started feeling like maybe I was missing the mark, and this wasn’t working. Maybe I wasn’t seeing the changes I needed to see because my job was to have productive employees with less sick time and also less stress.

Because up there, you can’t pick up the phone and call for a replacement.

If somebody is sick they’re just not showing up to work, then that’s that. And it has a huge impact on operations. Then I said, “Maybe I should actually work a shift.”

So I went to the operations manager and proposed the idea of working 3 days and 3 nights.

And that was a big wake-up call because the first night, I packed all the things I said everyone should be eating, and I remember at 2:00 AM in the morning, I didn’t feel well and I didn’t even feel like eating anything.

And then I was honest about it because often with Impostor Syndrome we have this belief that people expect us to be a certain way, and what I realised is that it’s important to be vulnerable in such moments: “Hey? You know what, I was wrong. I thought you guys could eat dinner and then have a snack, and then this and that throughout the night. And honestly, I don’t even feel like eating anything.”

I even apologized and said, “I am sorry. I’m so glad that I took the time to be with you guys to experience this, and I’ll try to find an alternative that’s going to work so you have the energy to actually function because this is your job.”

I have to keep reminding myself that if you’re not truly who you are and not being vulnerable, as Brené Brown says about what’s working and what’s not working – how is your client or anyone else going to feel safe, be themselves, and not end up with Impostor Syndrome?

So whenever there was a friction, I would pause and go, “I need to know more, or something’s wrong with the situation.”

After working 5 years there, I had my own practice, then my mom passed away, learned a lot of lessons from that. And I think that’s one thing that gets you really out of Impostor syndrome – when reality hits you. It really is at the end of life where you go. “Okay, does any of this really matter that much? Probably not.”

You know what matters: Human interaction and connecting with people.

 Impostor Syndrome is that piece where we think we have to be perfect and good at everything. And if I hadn’t been vulnerable with you, you wouldn’t have told me, “Hey, you know what you can’t know everything and find people to help you with the things that you’re not really good at.”

And that’s a strategy I think is critical. That was some of the Aha! moment you’ve shared with me: “Stay in your zone of genius.”

Half the people around that see you, really see you, for who you are. And can give you those suggestions of support like “It’s okay to not be able to do that. And here is an idea of how to fill that gap,” so you can take the the pressure off the gas.

Maurice Castelijn

Even today, you mentioned that sometimes you still feel like an impostor. Can you give an example of that?

Carolyn Gish 

Well, I think a good example is I’m putting out a new program for myself, and my specialty is gut-brain hormone. So I work a lot with people who are neurodivergent, ADD, ADHD. And there are times I wonder, “Do you know enough to talk about this subject?”

I definitely know enough. But I still wonder, “I’m not ADHD. So how can I talk about it, or I’m not ADD.” But I’m neurodivergent for sure. And even while putting out my own new program, I’m literally stopping myself thinking, “Can you really do this? Is this gonna resonate? Do I know enough?”

Maurice Castelijn

Can you describe some of the feelings when you go through that process? Especially for those that experience the same, to identify that this is also what they are feeling.

Carolyn Gish

Anxiety for sure. Like it’s that anxious, almost sick feeling. Then I start thinking about, “Okay, I am putting up my program. Are people going to judge? Is it gonna do what I want it to do?”

I mean, intuitively, I know well. But being a high knowledge, I get into my K mindset. I start overthinking, and that’s a scary place, and then I think that I need to know more.

But then I talk to other people and realise, I know enough already. And people need simple, not difficult.

So I think the feeling is this anxiety, and that creates fear – the fear of rejection. Fear of not getting it right. Fear of I don’t know enough. And so I really think it’s that fear, self-doubt, anxiety, sick feeling in the stomach…

And then you stop, and you don’t proceed.

It just becomes a dog chasing its tail kind of thing where you stop yourself and think, “Okay… Well, I’ve got to get this program out. I mean, I have clients, and and you know everyone thinks I’m doing a great job. So why am I stopping myself?”

And so you go back into your K, and you start overthinking and beating yourself up. So there’s also that. Or maybe I don’t have it right. Maybe I need to look at things.

That’s what I’ve heard from a lot of people: “What happens if you don’t get the right niche. What happens if I don’t do this?”

And it’s funny because every time they say that… and I’m coaching many nutritionists out there, spoken to a lot of students with THSA about this same thing. And I’m sitting there thinking… “Okay, I’m coaching you, and I do exactly the same thing”.

But that’s what’s great! That’s the reason I love coaching. You learn so much from the people you coach because what they talk about is for you, too.

That’s the gift. The gift of coaching is that you see yourself in them. You see, the struggles they’re going through and go, “Oh, yeah, I’ve got the same thing. This is going on for me too!” And that’s the value, as you’re almost coaching yourself while you’re coaching your client.

You know when it comes to niching… and you and I’ve talked about this… I think that it gives a lot of anxiety to people, and I think it gives them Impostor Syndrome, as well.

The reason they struggle to choose a niche is because their Impostor Syndrome is saying, “You really don’t know anything about anything”. And I think that’s a big piece.

That’s when I draw it out of them and start talking about what they’re passionate about? What have they gone through? What are the stories they have, and what are the challenges they have in their life?

And then they start to get excited, and they’re like, “Oh, yeah, I used to have Eczema, I got bullied in school, and I didn’t have very much confidence.” And then I say to them, “You know, once you love to share that with somebody else? What about all those people that are waking up praying that someone like you will come along?”

Many of my clients say, “Carolyn, you understand where I’m coming from, with being on the spectrum, with having that neurodivergent brain, and I’m just so grateful. I wish I’d met you a long time ago.” 

I actually pause and say, “I wish I had a me for me when I was your age.” Because a lot of my clients are in their thirties, and I didn’t have someone to help me navigate. 

So then you start wondering: Why would I have Impostor Syndrome about something that I’ve gone through?” And then I want to be the me for them that I didn’t have.

We talked a little bit before about this… about flipping the script, as they call it… These are challenges, but I can overcome those challenges and also to look back on your life when you have. Just reminding yourself when you get that anxious feeling like “I can’t do this, I feel like I have to throw up, I overthink in my brain, I get stuck” is to remind myself, you know when have I not had it. I’ve always gotten to the other side of it.

Maurice Castelijn 

Can I ask you a little bit more about what people experience and also whether or not it applies to you.

What I’ve seen myself with many of our students is that they continue wanting to study further and further. That’s not a bad thing, but it’s almost like they prioritise that compared to getting the business off the ground… You know, getting the practice moving, working with new clients, or putting themselves out there.

And you know the sense of, “Do they have enough knowledge really, in order to help a client?”

Do you ever have enough knowledge, Carolyn?

Carolyn Gish

I think the K (Knowledge) mindset says you never do, for sure.

A client doesn’t expect you to know everything. The problem is, you think they do.

And you might come across those clients that second-guess you, and then you start to panic.

I’ve come across that where you have that personality type. It’s a high K that wants to research once all the backing that you just said, and you’re kind of like, “I don’t have that in my head.” Then you start to panic that maybe I really don’t know enough about the subject.

But what you don’t realise until you’ve had experience and the coaching is that it’s okay to say, “That’s a really great question. Let me find the answer for you.”

On Saturday, it was at my daughter’s engagement dinner, and one of the girls was nauseous from pregnancy. And I asked, “What did you try?… I know that there’s a solution other than the drug that didn’t work, but I just don’t have it at the top of my head. So I’ll get back to you. I’ll refer someone I know, or I’ll have the answer myself.”

Now did she sit there and say, “Oh, my God, that’s terrible!”

No, she said, “That would be great because waking up and vomiting every morning isn’t really super fun; so anything would be great.”

So I think we’re hard on ourselves in that respect.

We think we have to know everything, and no one knows everything about everything.

Maurice Castelijn 

What about the perception where many professionals are putting themselves out in the likes of social media, and so on. And you know, coming across as really knowledgeable. And some other people are not that confident to put themselves in front of a camera and share all of that information. There’s a lot of that growth that we’ve seen in terms of information being shared, left, right, and centre. There’s so much new information around you. So as a professional, we’ve also seen that this affects your sense of self-worth.

“Do I really know enough? Oh, my goodness! You end up talking about if you said something maybe fertility nutrition-related, I have no experience in that whatsoever. What if I have a question from a client that’s about that? I would be standing there without an answer.” Is that something that you also recognize?

Carolyn Gish

Oh absolutely. I find that a lot. Social media is great, but it wields a sword. And I think it erodes people’s self-confidence a lot. It really is for me a huge one, because there was a conversation I had that said, “Who am I to be commenting on the subject on social media?” And what happens, the other problem that goes in my head is, “What happens, if I say something and I can’t necessarily back it up, or what happens if I say something and someone misinterprets it?” And then they say I’m saying something wrong, but it’s everyone’s different perspective.

I’m having to remind myself because I stay off social media. I’m not on social media that much because a lot of it is so fake I can’t stand it.

But people want your message, but not everyone wants your message. And that’s okay, because whatever you have to say is gonna land with whoever it needs to land with.

People have the intention span of a gnat right now.

People are overloaded with information. That’s another thing social media has done – they don’t know what to make sense of. And so, really, if you came in with a very simple approach that was very step-by-step, easy to implement, and you cared about people, it was related to a personal journey you’ve been on. Then people would find that of more value because it’s got to be easy to implement. But the thing i that everybody out there isn’t going to be your client.

And I think that’s what we worry about. “Oh, my God! Where am I going to find some clients?” You’re going to find some clients because people are going to resonate with you.

And so some people are gonna resonate with me. Some people are gonna resonate with you; someone’s going to resonate with somebody else. But the other thing is, it’s when you talked about my fertility nutrition – it’s also okay to have people in your life to get over this Impostor Syndrome. You’ve got to have a team of people that you can collaborate with.

Because you could say, “Hey, you know what that is, not my area of expertise. I’ve got my colleague, Susie, and she’s just a dynamo in fertility; that’s her jam. That’s what she does. She’s been through these issues before. Can I give you her number? Let me refer you to her.” Some of those with Impostor Syndrome also feel like there isn’t enough to go around.

We think we need to know everything about everything because “Oh, my God! I’m not going to have any clients!”

But what we don’t realise is by being too much of a generalist and trying to balance, you can’t know everything about everything. And nor do you have personal stories because people need to have that emotion behind it.

Because stories sell. We know that, and they also bring people in and get people to feel like they’re being seen and heard.

Impostor Syndrome is a label. It’s a label for something that is yucky, and we love to label everything.

You know, we even label people, you know, “You’ve got ADHD. You’ve got dyslexia. You’ve got BPD.” But I’m getting really uncomfortable with my clients around them being put into labels. I hate the labels.

Because then you’re trapped. It doesn’t give you any option to grow. It doesn’t give any opportunity for you to move past those things. It puts a limitation.

Maurice Castelijn

Yeah, it’s true! That limitation can happen a lot when you see a peer or professional that’s either put on a pedestal by others or maybe have got some sort of perceived success. You don’t really know how successful they are, but you know they look extremely successful. Maybe they’re running a 7 or an 8-figure business. “Oh, my goodness! I wish I could do that!”

If you don’t know where they truly are at. You don’t know what kind of support, as you say, they have around them. You don’t know what kind of pains they’ve gone through, what kind of investments they’ve put behind it. You know you’ve got very little knowledge of that big picture.

But still, it can be quite daunting for especially new professionals, new nutritionists who are coming into the industry, who want to go and make a difference, and they see all of these other super successful professionals out there.

“How can I be as good as them? And look at what they’re doing. Oh, my goodness, they’ve really got it worked out. They’ve got their branding right, they’re confident and got a lot of programs. They’ve got whole automation systems and funnels! Wow, you know, I can never be like even close to as good as that! So, am I really good enough?”

Carolyn Gish

Absolutely. And I think the thing is I’ve met those people who are making 7-8 figures.

They started with nothing.

And they had self-doubt, and they still have self-doubt, and they still question themselves. But they have a game plan to try and get past that. There were days where they wanted to quit.

I know of a colleague and that’s exactly where she was. She was just like, “What am I doing? Why am I doing this?” She had been in advertising before, and here she was, wanting to be in nutrition for skincare, and things weren’t happening.

And she was just feeling like, “It’s never gonna work for me”. All of these things that she was working on with the same coach as I was, and the strategies she was trying to implement weren’t getting results. But what we don’t realise is it takes a while. And that’s okay.

It’s not gonna necessarily happen overnight. There is no overnight success.

You hear a lot of those speakers that talk about that because no one talks about how many years it got them to get them there. How many years did it take? And what did they have to go through?

You know it’s interesting because you recommended that book, The Alter Ego, and when I was listening to that over the weekend, I thought, “Wow!” I went diving down to Dubai, and you know I didn’t think much of it, but that was terrifying for me.

So I had to kind of put in an alter ego of the badass Carolyn. One that’s gonna do this, no matter what, to get past the worry. One, I was even feeling like, I wasn’t even going to be good enough there!

Like what happens in my whole back, the other divers. What happens if this and one of the guys who is an advanced diver said, “Carolyn, we all had to start where you are. Just breathe and relax. It’s all gonna work out. We’re here for you!

And he even said, “This community is so supportive!” and I think that’s the key. You need to know that other people have been through what you’ve been through! And that you have a support system around you!

This is why with THSA, we talk about having the Clinical Nutrition Program and having the people and having the discussions. That’s why I love getting on all these Strategy calls with students, because it’s being able to impart that information.

Let them know I’ve been where they are. I’m still working through things and giving them some tools around that. Again going back to your passion, going back to what you really know, because you do know a lot.

That Impostor Syndrome is about the growth moments. So instead of saying Impostor Syndrome, let’s relabel it to Uncomfortable Growth Opportunities.

Maurice Castelijn

Exactly. You’re reading my mind on what my next question is, which is about looking at things from a different perspective.

So, I saw this great video, a very short video from Steven Bartlett on LinkedIn. And he was explaining that if you look at it more from a perspective of stretching and growing, and the fact that you are temporarily in an uncomfortable position, it actually also means that you’re growing.

You’re put in front of something new, where you can show yourself in a different perspective in a different line, where you can make a bigger difference, whatever it may be. And so it’s all about comfort zone, ultimately, right? And to push you out of there, but also to leverage your capabilities. And people may doubt those capabilities, and that’s kind of where they start to again lay themselves in, “Oh, my goodness, you know this I’m not certainly from good enough” and so on. That self-doubt creeps in.

But you can look at it from a different perspective and say, “I’m now feeling that. But actually, isn’t that a good thing? Because it means that I’m doing something beyond. You know it’s part of my growth.”

So, Carolyn, from your perspective, how could we look at Impostor Syndrome but then take a growth mindset instead of a negative one?

Carolyn Gish

What we can do is start to look at those moments and say, “Okay!” I’ve been in interviews. I’ve been in situations. I’ve done Lunch-and-Learn sessions where stuff didn’t land. You know, when I was right in the midst of it. And I’ve also had people say… I remember when I worked up North, I navigated Impostor Syndrome thinking I needed to do more.

And I had someone who had been in my Lunch-and-Learn from Day 1. From day one, I was just what I called making stuff up. It’s like being in there going, “I’ve never done this before.” It’s when I was kind of having fun, and it wasn’t getting too much my hat.

I was in the moment, and just my personality was shining. Then I got into this, “I have to deliver something, and it has to be of importance.” And this person said to me, “You know what, Carolyn, don’t get me wrong. Your Lunch-and-Learns are great. But they’re just not the same. You seem like you’re just trying to teach us something… Before, it was so much more of you there.” And I lost myself worrying about what I was delivering.

Maurice Castelijn

It was almost like you were working towards what you thought was the expectation…

Carolyn Gish

Exactly, instead of taking what I knew and then just sharing it. Because I still remember the first time I actually did a talk, and it was back at corporate, and I was on stage, and I moved my hands, and I walked around, and I had this presentation.

But I wasn’t really looking at the slides when I was standing, and the fellow who’s my AV guy was super funny, and anyways I kept walking away from the mic like I wasn’t carrying it.

And he didn’t have me wired, so he would put up a slide.

Because I tend to be looking, and it would be like the Cookie Monster, and I was like, “What the heck!” And he’d say, “That was my queue, Carolyn. You’re not in your box.”

And this was a professional speaking thing, but that was the best. Because I was just being me, and people wanted me. They didn’t want some professor trying to shove some information down their throat!

So, I mean, I think the perspective that I kind of go back to is, “Carolyn, you started in this industry. You went into the corporate space. You didn’t know about shift work. But you did an incredible job.” 

And I think it’s going back and saying, “Okay, so what went well in that situation? What could I have done better? And then what is the next step for me now?”

And I’m really trying to break it down to that now, so I don’t get into my head and beat myself up because it’s not a very good space up here, in my head. It’s not a good conversation. ‘Carolyn Talking to Carolyn’ isn’t always the best conversation. 

Which is why you need to have people you can talk to. I’ve also learned I’m a very highly verbal person. You know the neighbourhood in my head is not a good place to be ruminating over. 

I need to have a different perspective, right? And that’s why I say that coaching other people helps me get out of my head, and it makes me wake up to some of the things I need. 

I know if you’re talking about how to change is that Impostor syndrome is your growth opportunity. But it’s also saying – “What do you want to be, and what kind of difference do you want to make in the world.” Because the difference in the world isn’t about how much you know. It’s also about what you’re doing. And how you’re changing people’s lives.

And changing people’s lives isn’t just reading the encyclopedia and regurgitating it. It’s your interpretation. And it’s going back to what your experiences are.

Maurice Castelijn

Right, it’s the focused application and know-how. But rather than, what you said, it’s not just regurgitating and all of these different pieces of knowledge as if you are, sort of, at the quiz trying to win a kitchen. That’s not the point.

It’s really about identifying where you can shine in the best way by leveraging the toolset that you have.

We’ve seen that a lot of people feel the need, as you mentioned, to make stuff up. And that’s a dangerous position because then, all of a sudden, especially when it comes to health and wellness, you start to propose different things or recommend certain things that you haven’t really gotten clear for yourself.

Yet even where you don’t have a lot of experience with that, and you are just shooting things left, right, and center, hoping something will stick, that’s a dangerous thing because then the clients may just take that as “Oh, you know Carolyn. You know she knows her stuff. Therefore, I’m just going to run with it. That’s the advice I’m getting, so I’m going to implement that.”

And that is also something to bear in mind. You know this kind of ‘fake-it-till-you-make-it’ approach, which is often connected to getting beyond Impostor Syndrome“Do it, and you know you will eventually get there”… I personally don’t agree with that.

Because it also means that you could put people in harm’s way. Have you come across something like that?

Carolyn Gish

Yeah, that’s it. That’s interesting what you just said because ‘fake it till you make it’ never really resonated with me, and it again comes back to that kind of high-knowledge mindset: I didn’t want to make a mistake.

So you have to kind of balance. When I started in this space, I knew what I knew. But I was having fun with the way I communicated it. So I wasn’t going outside of saying something that was improper. But I wasn’t so worried about checking boxes about what I was saying.

That’s what I went from having a conversation and connecting with people with information, and then I went to not good enough of “Oh, I need to be delivering more material in, and I have to get this out in an hour instead of being able to have that connection with people.”

So you do need to make sure you know what you’re talking about, but you have to be careful because that’s where this Impostor Syndrome comes in and stops them from getting involved in something and they go, “I don’t know enough about that.” You know enough because you really don’t need to know major details down to the granular level to have a conversation. And the clients are not expecting it. What they’re expecting is transformation.

It’s the communication and the connection with the client that’s going to get them to do something. But if you don’t connect, it doesn’t matter if you tick off the box.

If you give them their PhD version, that doesn’t mean they’re going to apply to their own life. I mean, we’re talking about coaching here. We’re not talking about training.

Maurice Castelijn 

Right training and coaching are 2 different things. This is where we get some confusion. When we’re in school we’re really in a training aspect where we’re learning information. There isn’t a coaching arrangement there.

Carolyn Gish

Coaching is what we are now doing with our clients by providing them with the background of why they should chew their food more. Why should they do this? But if we spend all our time teaching them there is going to be no transformation.

So I believe alter ego is important because if someone who’s standing in the Olympics wants to be the best swimmer ever – say you’re Michael Phelps, and you’re gonna win the breaststroke. I mean, he goes into an alter ego for sure to be able to win because he’s going to have all that self-doubt.

But he’s not faking it till he makes it. There’s no faking, I mean. He had to work hard to get where he is. He has to be that person in his own head that that is gonna win. He has to transform his thinking that I’m this superhero swimmer like Aquaman like I don’t know if that’s his alter ego.

Maurice Castelijn 

He thinks differently right? This is something that Todd Herman, who is the author of the Alter Ego Effect book that Carolyn just mentioned, and he’s been with us previously on a webinar…

And he explains exactly those things. So he’s a performance coach, and he also talks a lot about Impostor Syndrome. Now he himself is not a nutrition professional like you are, where you’re bringing a different perspective. But the principle applies. That it is a mindset thing.

I want to add one small thing here because you mentioned using whatever knowledge that you’ve learned. And that means you’re putting it in front of a client.

It triggered a little thought of mine from when I was younger. A lot younger, you know, a lifelong ago, I was presented with an option to provide somebody else’s presentation.

So somebody else had created it. I was working for KPMG at the time. I was working on a presentation, and there wasn’t a lot of time. And so I was basically indirectly forced to use a presentation that somebody else had created.

But I did not have that knowledge or know-how, and I did not go through it. So that was a typical feeling of, you know, being like an Impostor, where you’re teaching or showcasing or recommending something that you just don’t know about. It will do more harm than good.

That’s why even today, whenever there’s a presentation, whatever it is, I write my slides, and I write them from scratch because that is my own know-how. This is my way of communicating with an audience, as you say, connecting with an audience.

Me being true to myself and being in my zone of genius, as opposed to taking something from somebody else and then trying to make it my own.

This is something that we’ve also seen. Some students have tried to do it in the past. They go, “Oh, you know what I studied something with The Health Science Academy…” (maybe one of our many certifications) “And let me just use some pieces of the knowledge from there and put myself out there like I’m an expert in this space.”

By just doing it that way, by not having the feeling that you’ve tried and tested and applied it in practice with maybe even friends or family first – it already generates the feeling of Impostor Syndrome. You know you haven’t gone through that route, and you’re trying to take one step too big, and you’re not doing it with confidence. And ultimately, when you are in front of a client who then has an expectation. If you then don’t know something about it, that’s absolutely horrible, right? It destroys the confidence and will just be taken away from you within a millisecond.

So I always say to take a certain piece of knowledge and try and apply it into practice. Do something with that knowledge. Don’t continue studying and learning and learning.

Keep on applying it to practice because that’s a way to break some of that Impostor Syndrome because you’re then doing it. I think you mentioned that earlier, Carolyn, when you’re doing it when you’re in the moment rather than just giving a lot of information just at the moment.

That is, when people then see, “Hey! You know, this person actually knows what they’re talking about!” You know that they may not necessarily have gone through the entire program or whatever it may be. But be honest about it. You mentioned vulnerability, right? You know it’s not just about being vulnerable for the sake of it.

Kind of, being very focused about how you put yourself forward. So that’s just a perspective I wanted to share. I know some of our students do put themselves in that position where they’re not ready, but it’s only that they’re not ready because they’re not putting the know-how that they’ve learned into practice immediately to start working with clients and building up that confidence. So I’m curious, Carolyn, how you respond to that?

Carolyn Gish

I think it’s important to have a framework, which you and I talked about. Having some done-for-you content.

So I agree with you that yes, when I’ve done presentations they weren’t 100% my own sometimes, not all the time. That can be a problem.

But if you take the presentation and you use that presentation. So I did a lot of presentations for corporations, and I worked for a company that actually said, “Here’s a presentation. You’re gonna go and talk to Xerox.”

So I would take the presentation, but I was allowed to put personal stories with that. I was not allowed to alter the slides, but I did my own personal twist on it from my own experiences.

But I think you have, I want to say, out there for all those people that are just starting out nutrition.

Because I know I have a lot of stuff in my head, a lot of experience creating my own program. I will keep overanalyzing because that is just me. Trying to get what’s in my head down on paper is a challenge for me. It really is because I’m second-guessing it constantly. And so I know that’s just me, and I need help with that.

And sometimes it’s having something that’s done for you, or pieces that are already there that I can take those pieces and then add my own flair in.

So I think what’s important is: Don’t think that you have to create it from scratch yourself.

I know from being out there and having a coach who coaches on business, creating your own signature program and business, and the number of people that get through it is 25% that actually create it.

Because they get in their head, and they don’t think they’re good enough and they can’t do it.

If you have some good coaches, they will help you go past that. But you’ve got to have some. Sometimes people need that template to start, and then you can create your own flair around that template. But what you said is very true. If you don’t get out there and talk to people and sort of test things and get some information, you don’t know what people need.

When I worked up North, the guys and girls would say, “Do you have a PhD?”
And I said, “No…”
They said, “Well, how do you know all this stuff?”
I said, “It’s because I read a lot, and I apply it. I just read them, apply, read, find, read.”

I was researching all the time, I mean for sleep, and the impact of stress and shift work.

I knew some, but I had to learn a lot while I was up there, and every time a client came in and said, “I’ve got this problem” and I’m just going “Oh, boy, you know I better go and research a bit more there just to figure out how to help this particular situation.”

But then I could take that situation and apply it to another person. So you’re right. You have to get out there and take what you’ve learned, and apply it, and see where there are some gaps.

That’s why it’s going back to that philosophy of not Impostor Syndrome, but changing to: What is the strategy? The strategy is: What went well. What can I do better? And how am I gonna change that?

Because if you look at every situation, it’s like having your kids come home at the end of a day. You don’t go and say, “Well, how was your day?” and they start complaining about all the things that happened.

You know you say the best situation is to say what? “Well, today’s, you know, Susie, oh, you know I helped out Mary because she was really sad in the playground.”

“Awesome! And what sort of challenges did you have? And what could you do better?”

If we actually took that even with each other, instead of going into this, “You know my day sucked and blah blah blah.”

And we actually say what went well. See again in that positive framework. That will take you out of this Impostor Syndrome. What went well? Because there are things that went well. And what were some of the challenges. Well, you know what I didn’t know about XYZ.

Okay. So what are you gonna do about that? Either you’re gonna research some more. Or you might say, “That’s out of my realm of what I want to do, and you find someone that can answer those questions.”

Because not everyone, as I said, expects you to know everything about everything… they don’t.

So I think the thing is that you want to really get into that framework, and that alter ego that we just talked about.

If you have that lack of self-confidence, it’s like putting on a shirt and tie, you know a more business look. This is not a video. But I got dressed very professionally today, to be honest. Carolyn is in her business self. She’s not in her sweats because Zoom Meetings became so you could just stress your upper half, and the rest didn’t matter. I did, too, you know… casual in their dress, which means you’re casual in the way you’re showing up.

But it is that kind of I’m in my badass, Carolyn, you know, like I’m gonna be doing a coaching session. I’m opening up a training. And am I nervous about this? Yes, that’s more in my personality.

But I’m going to have to bring that badass Carolyn, and I’m going to have you know a super blazer on, and dress pants and a shirt because that won’t bring me into that badass Carolyn place. That she’s the one that knows what she’s doing and that’s going to communicate. Make a difference.

And so it’s that alter ego of Carolyn. I’m going to obviously know what I’ll be talking about to make sure I have the information. But there is gonna be somebody who is going to ask me a question that I won’t know the answer to.

But it’s where I’ve learned the mistake is when you try to fake it till you make it and answer the question.

If you have a bunch of Ks in the room, you’ll bury yourself there. So it’s best to say, “You know what a great question. Let me get back to you with the answer to that.”

That’s the thing about Impostor Syndrome: The need to know everything about everything. It’s not true. Just acknowledge, “Hey, you know what? That is a great question for your client, and I don’t actually have the answer right in front of me for that. Would it be okay if I went and got that for you?”

They’re going to be grateful that you just didn’t make something up at the moment. If you didn’t know the answer. They’re going to be, “Wow! You think enough of me that you’re gonna go and find the answer for me?”

And that’s where I think we get tripped up is that we think we need to know everything. And you don’t need to know everything about everything.

But you do need to answer your question. Get out and start getting experience because it’s going to be in that experience of what you’ve learned, and applying it that you get the confidence, and that know-how about how to apply to another client.

Which is why another strategy that I talked about earlier that I say to other nutritionists is when they start out is to pick something they’re passionate about.

If it is about working with kids with ADHD. If it’s kids that are in sports, and you know we’re not giving them the right tools to be energized to swim, or play soccer, or if it’s about hormonal imbalance, or if it’s about anxiety and depression because you’ve seen, you know siblings, or you have someone that committed suicide or whatever else you’ve gone through.

You know you need to take that piece, because then you have the confidence, and you have the passion behind it, and you can start with that.

And then, as you talk to people, what’s great about that is that when you talk to other mothers, and you say, “You know what I struggled as a child with Eczema, and I know what that feels like”. You know, for mothers that are dealing with kids with Eczema, maybe they didn’t go through it, so they don’t know. and you can tell a mother, “Hey! You’re not doing anything wrong! Because you know my mom didn’t know, but I’m going to help you through this process. So your child doesn’t have to go through what I went through.”

And in that conversation, you’re going to realize, “Hey, I don’t know enough about XYZ. Maybe I don’t know how anxiety has an impact on Eczema, or I don’t know about our immune system.”

So you don’t have to know everything about that. But you might find little tidbits, and you might go off the road this way. That’s why niche can be a direction you’re going in, but you can be picking little pieces up along the way that you get interested in, and then you could do more research in that area.

Take a course you didn’t know anything about, like detox, and you realize, “Oh, my gosh! You know detox is an area I need to understand better. I’m going to go and take a course on detox because that’s going to help me be that much better with those clients that I have trouble with.”

But do you have to know that all when you first start? No.

You have to have passion and direction. Because that’s going to override that feeling that you don’t know anything.

It is almost like you can put your Superman cape on: “I did it. I got through it, and I’m gonna help all those people out with the same thing that I struggled with.”

Maurice Castelijn 

Yes, 100%! I think it was wonderful, especially the practical strategies that you mentioned and also the growth mindset. And I think the other part that you mentioned is what is your opinion on this is the application of that knowledge.

But you also mentioned leveraging certain tools that are available to you like, the client materials we provide with, to use them because it will help you just feel a lot more confident in the beginning.

And even though they may not necessarily be created or written by you to your point. Make them your own right, you know. Put your own spin on it. Make certain that they fit within the narrative that you want to have as part of that client engagement.

I think you know that’s very, very powerful. So it allows you to start with that growth mindset. It’s already got you a bit of a booster: “I’ve got stuff here that people that nobody else has. Not even some of these professionals that I’m seeing who have the perceived success.”

They do not have what I have here, and they probably wish that they would have it, and that makes what I do special, and it makes what I do something that is mine and I’m passionate about.

And I’m not feeling like an impostor. I’m feeling like I’m operating like me but armed with tools and knowledge, and insights that can help me make a bigger impact on my clients.

So it’s like a toolkit, a way that you just leverage, and then you can just be yourself in your zone of genius, where you just pick and choose whatever parts you think are appropriate, and some parts, as you said, are involved in testing, experimenting, and you read up on maybe some more information.

But as long as you’ve got that passion for that particular topic, as you mentioned about niching earlier. But once you’ve got kind of that clarity… This is what I want to do because I can also associate with that… it’s much less likely that you’ll be operating with that ongoing kind of Impostor Syndrome that will eventually lead to a downfall. Right?

Carolyn Gish

Yeah. And I think with the growth mindset, I really like that term instead of Impostor Syndrome because, again, it’s like putting someone in a box. I never like boxes. I like, you know, being out of the box.

So I think it’s it’s the growth mindset that allows you to look at things differently, and you’re right. It’s the tools on your tool belt because your experiences, what you have, what your life has been are very different than anyone else. There is nobody else like you. and we have to keep reminding our unique self is what people want, and not everyone is going to resonate with you.

But your unique self is going to resonate with someone and change their life.

Maurice Castelijn

That’s so nice. I just want to say that again, you know:

Your unique self, is something that resonates with somebody, and then allows them to change their lives, for you to make a bigger impact.

I think it’s really powerful because there’s a lot of talk about I’ll be you, you be yourself, you know.

But it’s very vague. You’re putting a connection here by being more kind of ‘true to yourself’, and by having the right tools, and by having that level of comfort. Sometimes you will be put out of that comfort zone where you may feel like, am I good enough?

But if you got that growth mindset, then it allows you to make a bigger impact out there. And you know you are especially in that regards, your experience is very different from anybody else’s.Your unique experience is different, and therefore your connection, your impact with clients is also unique.

And that’s great! It’s a wonderful thing. So if you look at impostor syndrome, you recognize what kind of feelings are associated with it. But you also recognize that’s not the end.

And that’s just by recognizing it, you know, by having that identification but with the tools and strategies, the tips and the insights that Carolyn just provided, you can get out of this a lot faster.

I just want to ask one more question, Carolyn, before we wrap this up, and the key question is:
What advice do you have for those that feel, well, that’s all good and well. You’ve been talking about this, but I’m stuck. So how do I not feel like I’m not good enough?

What can I do right now? What kind of practical tips do you have for me that will allow me to move to the next step with a much more positive growth mindset. So what advice do you have for those who feel that?

Carolyn Gish

Well, I think it depends on the person, but generally, I think if you can get into the space of being able to write what are those key things that you know about like? Who are you, and what are the aspects that you know about? So, in other words, it’s a list of it of your the qualities that you love about yourself or who you are.

What are your unique qualities? And what are you passionate about? What is the difference you want to make in the world? Writing those things down can help. It also can help even with what we’ve done. I’ve set up strategy meetings with a lot of clients that are, when I say clients, I mean students that are stuck.

And setting up something like that with myself or with a good friend of yours, or anything where you can have that person that really knows you, and you just say, “So what do you think is great about me?”

Because often, we don’t see ourselves the way that other people see us. And the sad part is, we just sell ourselves short all the time.

We don’t realize the impact we have on others. So I think it’s really talking about where we may have made a difference in other people’s lives. I mean, if you really stuck sometimes you can’t even do that. If you’re like me, when I’m stuck in my head, writing something down is not going to happen.

I need to have tea with someone or coffee and or give them a call, and they just sit there and listen, and we just jam stuff out, and they ask me questions, and they’re writing stuff down. And so that is one of the ways of getting unstuck. I think it’s communication. It’s communicating with others.

And we talked about you need to have a community of like-minded people that say, “Hey, you know what? I’m going through the same thing. Really? Oh my gosh!”

It’s like new moms. They’re sitting there going, “I suck as a mom.” And the best thing is when you go to a mom’s group, and the other mom’s saying, “You know what? My kid had a temper tantrum and did this with them.”

And you go, “Oh, my God. I’m not the only person, right?” So it’s getting in communication. I think that’s the biggest thing is getting in communication with somebody that you have that is going to listen but also not listen to your story.

Maurice Castelijn

I think there’s a bit of a combination here, right? So you’ve got a part which is sort of mentorship right from other professionals like yourself or other more established successful professionals, and you also have got peers who may be feeling the same. Who are at the same level, in the same state, where they’re doubting that what I’m going to do next.

And we’ve got such a wonderful, absolutely truly wonderful community here at The Health Sciences Academy, with people who are so supportive of each other. So leveraging the THSA Community for that is a great way where you could just put something out there like:

“I’m stuck here… I’m not certain… how can I go beyond this…”
Or “I feel with this Impostor Syndrome mindset. Does anybody else feel that? Do you know who else has moved out from that? Are there any tips or anything that you can recommend?”

You talked about vulnerability, right, so to be vulnerable. And to say, you know what? Yeah, I am there, and you know I’m not feeling great about it, and I need help, or at least kind of want to hear from others. You know what they’ve done to feel better.

And I think that our community is a really, really good one. You mentioned community communication. So, we’ve got a wonderful, extremely positive, and supportive community where I really urge anybody who feels like this to go into the community and start interacting and engaging with others who might feel the same way NOW!

It’s also important to know that there will be some others who have been there in the past, you know, like you Carolyn, or anybody else who then can jump in and say, “Hey, actually, you know, have you thought about XYZ, or, like, tell me, tell me a little bit more about this? Or do you want to jump on a quick call.” And this support can then help transform that negative mindset into more of a positive growth mindset.

Carolyn Gish

Yeah. And I think the reality is, you just have to take action. Because inaction doesn’t get you anywhere. And I think that’s where it’s like either you’re gonna do this or not.

There’s nothing to lose and a lot to gain. And I listen to a podcast today, and and the guy said, “Don’t discount the difference you can make in the world. Everyone has something to say, and everyone will resonate with somebody.”

Which is why, when people are going through difficult times. it’s important to share about it, so that someone else can say: Hey, you know what, I identify with that person.

Now, there’s a difference between getting together with people, and saying “I’m present to this” and having a bitch session, as I call it, where we’re getting together and coming up with some solutions.

So sometimes you need to create a framework. Even my daughter and I, she’ll say, “I just wanna I just want to vent.” Okay, she doesn’t want any coaching for me, and because she would get mad if I coached.

So now, what I do is if she calls me up, I’ll say, “Do you want to vent, or do you want me to help you solve a problem?”

And I think, having a context of somebody who knows and saying, I’m not gonna listen to you complain for the next hour, because that’s not productive.

If you want to tell me what your challenges are, and then also see you for who you are. That is a different conversation. That’s more empowering. Get out of that story that you’re not special. Everyone is special. We’re born special. We’re born exactly who we are and who are meant to be, it really brings our gift to the world, and the longer that you take to do it, the more people at the other end are gonna suffer without you being there to help them.

I did a lot of traveling. Obviously, when I was rotating up to camp, I mean I was up and back twice. That was 4 flights at least if not 6 a month and I would sit beside people. And they put their earphones in, and I thought you know what I really wanna be that light for the world. And so I would have conversations with people, and they were incredible conversations and I know I made a difference, but I never saw them again.

It’s not like I exchanged numbers. I just was present to their conversation, shared some insight, shared some things, and off they went, and they were like, Thank you so much!

And you know they probably are telling other people, you know. “Wow! I met this gal on the plane, and it was the coolest conversation I know.”

I’ve met people where I really get something out of it. But if you don’t open your mouth and have a conversation, you’re not going to learn from other people. And it’s those learning that you can tie back to the information you’re learning. So learning from some people, hearing about issues that then you can take what you’ve learned and apply it.

So sometimes you say, “I’m not seeing any clients.” Yeah, I’m not saying you don’t have to see any clients. All you have to do is talk to different people and get some situations that are challenging. What are people challenged with? And how can I help them find a solution?

It’s really like, what do I know right now. And, as you said, take those done-for-you content, or maybe it’s if you’re the person that wants to talk to parents about solutions that are healthy snacks that kids are going to eat. Then you come up with 5 snacks that are easy to make, and your kids are going to love them, and you offer that as freebies to clients.

When you talk to the school, you say I’d really like to talk to you about how to bring in some interesting snacks and things that parents could use.

We may make it too complicated, you know.

Go and look at what are the little things that you can do today. Not the big things. What are the little things that you can make a contribution with that you’re doing at home.

Often what we do is when you, especially with me in the industry, as long as I have the stuff that I do, I think, is just normal. So when I have to tell people about chewing it’s kind of like that’s so basic like don’t you understand that?

No, they don’t because they’re not in my head. Once you start studying things so much. You start to think that everyone knows everything in your head, and if you say anything basic, it’s not going to make a difference.

But what you don’t realize is they’re not in your head. If I was gonna talk about, you know, steam engineering, do I know anything about steam engineering? Not really. I mean, I know as much as being up at camp and learning, but I had to learn about all those things. I had to have conversations.

But I couldn’t have the same conversation with an engineer. Nor could he have the same conversation with me about nutrition unless he had taken a side hustle of nutrition.

So we think the stuff we know is too basic to share. But what we don’t know is that because we’re studying and we’ve done all these things, but it’s the little things that make the biggest difference, like just little teeny hacks that you could help others with.

Like making some little cookies that are healthy. But their kids are going to eat, and their blood sugar isn’t going to go up now, but they don’t need to know all the bunch of good stuff. Just what can I give my kid to eat so that they aren’t cranky all the time? That’s all they want to know. They don’t need to know all the backing behind it. You need to know that.

You need to know that this cookie is going to make a difference. So the whole thing goes back to coaching. What are your client’s struggles? And every client is different. So going back to you know, to kind of complete the circle… is our impostor syndrome has a lot to do with what we think we need to know to be able to be a difference for a client.

And well, we don’t necessarily need to know all that stuff. We need to know some of it, but we need to be able to apply it like you were saying.

We need to be able to take that knowledge and be able to put it into someone’s real life so that they can have that transformation and their health or their energy or their relationship or their whatever.

If I talk about communication, and I make a difference in how someone’s able to communicate, the trickle-down effect can be massive. It might be better communication at work, which then translates to better communication at home, which means they have better relationships with their children, better relationships. So there’s a ripple effect.

And the biggest hack is: Keep it simple, stupid. It’s like the K.I.S.S. principle. It has to be doable to work in their life.

Maurice Castelijn

I like that! I want to connect briefly, especially for those inside the Clinical Nutrition Program is that: Don’t wait all the way until the end. You’ve gathered so much knowledge and insight, and finally you feel prepared. As soon as you’re kind of ready, start practising it with a friend or a colleague, or family. 

It’s just to test the waters, and to become familiar with the materials, with the content, with your approach, and so on. It’s about getting in there. You mentioned, you know, to take that action… that inaction will just increase that level of impostor syndrome as well. So it’s really important to start working with clients as soon as you are allowed to. And as soon as you have the opportunity to do so, and like what you said, Carolyn – it’s not about huge programs. It’s about small changes leveraging existing materials, and so on. Make things a little bit easier for yourself. When a client sees them they go, “Oh, you know what, this person is very professional in their approach to get everything laid out, nice framework, step by step, and so on for me. Really easy to implement. I love this kind of professional.” Whilst you may be thinking is it really good enough? Do I need to know more? Should I have provided more information on, you know XYZ… as you said, a whole breakdown of why this particular cookie is incredibly beneficial to them or not? No!

So that’s the key message here is… Don’t overthink it because that’s really connected to that Impostor Syndrome. And by leveraging things like alter ego effect or other kind of strategies that we’ve been discussing today you should be able to either reduce it or maybe even avoid it altogether. 

Or if you’re stuck then at least you’ve got a number of different options available on how you can quickly get out of this horrible negative feeling and adopt more of that positive growth mindset.

Carolyn Gish

I think that’s the biggest thing. Just what you said there. I don’t think it ever goes away. But you can leverage it to your advantage:

I’m feeling this way. That’s okay. Why am I feeling this way?
I’m feeling this way because I’m second-guessing myself.
What do I really know about the subject?
Okay, I know about this and this. I’m going to write that down.
Is there some areas that I like to know more? Yeah, okay.
But what is going to make the biggest difference with a client right now?
It’s this – so I am going to build on it.

You know Rome wasn’t built in a day. You know Elon Musk – I kind of like him because he leverages being a neurodivergent thinker, and he doesn’t care what other people think which is awesome, and he’s not afraid to fail.

He looks at it and goes. “Oh, well, the rocket blew up. Okay!” And he’s got that perfect growth mindset. He looks at it and says, “Okay, the rocket blew up. That cost me whatever amount of money. Okay, we need to look at what went down. Well, what do we need to change to get the rocket up in there next time. Oh, the rocket blew up again. Okay, let’s take what changes we made. Well, what can we do better? And up it goes, and then finally has success.”

But it really is that mindset of not getting stuck and dwelling in the past. And then maybe you do need to explore and get help from a therapist or someone where it could be something that happened to you when you were a child.

There are things that happen to you in your past life that can impact here. But look at that, and then get help around that area. But the biggest thing is don’t stay stuck. It really is about looking at… What are the positives? What do people say about you? What is the passion you have? Why did you even think of going into nutrition in the first place? Because if you don’t know why you went into nutrition in the first place, you’re never going to go anywhere.

You need to go back and look at it. I went into nutrition because I burnt out. And when I burnt out, I ended up with an eye condition. I could barely see. And guess what, the doctors didn’t have an answer for me. The solution was really not any guarantees, and it didn’t sound very attractive, so I thought I’ve got to do this myself. So I did. Then I thought, okay. I remember talking to the doctor saying what I did, and he said, “Oh, that’s nice. That’s just you.” I know what you’ve got to be kidding me. There’s a ton of people that are suffering just like me and that’s not okay.

We’ve got to share it. Doesn’t mean my story works for everyone. But there’s are tidbits from what I went through that may be helpful for other people to transform what they’re going through right?

So that’s what made me go and study because I said, Wait a minute. I did this myself. I need to understand how that works because I didn’t. I just started eating healthy, started exercising, got rid of my stress, and 6 months later my condition was in remission.

But I want other people to know, never say never. There’s always a possibility, there’s always chance of recovery. There’s you know, when you get an autoimmune disease, or other things like that doesn’t mean you’re stuck. But if I didn’t stop and say I’m going to help others see the potential, I wouldn’t be here. So that’s the reason I did it. Otherwise, it could have just gone back to financial planning, continued to be a financial planner.

But I just said to myself, I did this. I need to share this with others.

Maurice Castelijn

Brilliant! Very good! Well, Carolyn, thank you so much for sharing this, for this very insightful conversation, but also these extremely useful tips based on your experiences, based on the conversation that you’ve had with students at The Health Sciences Academy, based on other kind of external influences that you were able to portray so nicely on where Impostor Syndrome can be a downfall, but also how you can get out of it.

And that a change of mindset can make a huge difference. So I just wanted to say a huge thank you for being here today! I’m sure that we’ll have more conversations about this the next time.

Carolyn Gish

Yes, and thank you for having me and just everyone out there…. you know you’ve got your special, unique self. Just get it out there. Everyone’s waiting for you.

Maurice Castelijn

Thank you, everybody, for listening, and see you next time. Bye, bye!

See Also

Continuing Education Bundle

Upcoming Webinar

[PDF] Should We Fear GMOs?

2024 Science Report

Free Contrast Method

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