The Transformative Power of Menopause Knowledge: From Awareness to Empowerment with Hazel Davies

Read as you listen or read on the go: Here’s the full interview for you

Maurice Castelijn

Welcome back, everyone. So today, we’re continuing our exploration into the world of Menopause Health. As I mentioned in our last interview with Dr. Michelle de la Vega, this topic isn’t widely discussed, and many women suffer from this life-changing transition in silence. And last time, we actually covered the many challenges and opportunities that are related to Menopause Health, and we even shared some really shocking statistics. 

Today, we’re diving deeper and looking at how this know-how in this field can be applied in practice and be transformational for individuals, professionals, clients, patients, and so on. And the whole point of this is to create a more positive and supportive world overall. In other words, we’re talking about the transformation journey from awareness to empowerment. And that is why I’m very pleased to introduce Hazel Davies, who’s been working with women transitioning through perimenopause and menopause professionally. Now Hazel is a Nutritional Therapist through The Health Science Academy, and she’s built a lot of experience coaching perimenopause and post-menopausal women as a personal trainer, working on weight loss and healthy eating, especially supporting women. 

So, Hazel, a huge, big welcome.

Hazel

Hello, Maurice. Thank you. Really lovely to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Maurice Castelijn

Well, Hazel, please share more about your background. I’m certain that everybody here would want to know that. Specifically, what got you into focusing on menopause?

Hazel 

I’ve been in the health industry for many years now. I think I qualified as a Personal Trainer in 2006, quite a long time ago now. And so I’ve been working with women in this stage of life for a long time, even before I qualified in nutrition. And I was noticing when people were coming to me with these terrible symptoms and the way that they were affecting their life – I really wanted to help them more, but I felt that I wasn’t as prepared as I needed to be. I wanted to do more, study more, research, so that I could support them better. And I think that anybody who is a PT would come across this issue at some time. If you’re working in a health club, you’re going to train people that are going to have perimenopausal symptoms. So it was very very important for me to know more.

Maurice Castelijn

Excellent. Well, you also mentioned to me previously that many women express feelings of overwhelm regarding perimenopause. Can you elaborate a bit on that?

Hazel

Yes, when I’ve been training clients, you often have a very personable relationship with your clients, and they will share very personal things with you – that they’re struggling in their jobs, perhaps, they’re struggling in their relationships for various reasons. They might have brain fog and memory issues, they might be losing their focus, they might feel that they’re not good at their jobs anymore when they’ve been doing their jobs for 20 or 30 years. And then suddenly they’re feeling anxiety, they’re feeling lots of hot sweats, their body feels very different, their mood is changing. They feel very anxious about their job. And also in their home life and in relationships, they feel that they might be snapping at their kids or their partners, and then there’s just this big rage that comes over them, and they don’t feel that they’re in control of it. It can be very scary for them.

Maurice Castelijn 

I understand. Now, based on your experience, what are women going through perimenopause the most worried about? So, if you’re thinking about what you’ve seen and the kind of challenges you’ve seen, but especially what your clients are talking about, what they’re most worried about in terms of perimenopause, what is that, Hazel?

Hazel

Well, a lot of people come to me for weight loss as a primary issue because they don’t feel they recognise their bodies anymore. Often, women can say that they put on, you know, three or four stones (1 stone = 6.35kg = 14 lbs), particularly around the middle, and they’re losing confidence. So often, primarily, the weight loss is what they come to me for. But there is also a whole range of symptoms that we discuss and need to work with.

Maurice Castelijn

What kind of, what are the biggest issues? So you’re talking about weight loss, for example. What are the biggest issues and problems that you’ve come across to kind of indicate how serious this can be?

Hazel

I think that people feel that they can’t run after their kids because they’re very unfit. Even things like going to a theme park with their kids and they’re worried about weight limit or something like that. You know, these are the kind of things that sometimes come up, you know, getting in a swimsuit when they go to the swimming pool, when they go out, you know, for a night out, they’re worried about what they’re going to wear, and it really makes them feel sound conscious about their bodies.

Maurice

And is it predominantly weight gain or other type of serious problems and issues that you’ve come across?

Hazel

Yes, so the overwhelm very much goes hand in hand with this. Because of the weight gain, they feel that that’s spiralling out of control. So, in a physical sense, that’s a big issue that they’re often dealing with. But there’s also because their brain can’t keep up in terms of the brain fog that they feel and their memory is much slower, you know, with the recall and that kind of thing, then life feels more unmanageable. And it seems like it’s running away with them as well. It’s that lack of control. And often, during the menopause years, there are also other things that are going on – their parents might be getting older, and they might need to care for their parents and also care for young children. They’re also at a point in their career often where they’ve got a career where they have a lot of responses and demands on their life as well as going through this transition and all these changes that are happening to their body and their mind. And it feels very overwhelming and they feel out of control.

Maurice

Yeah, you actually mentioned the impact on family and workplace dynamics. Can you give a couple more examples? Because this is really insightful. 

Hazel

Often we’re talking about women’s consciousness about their bodies as well. Often women, when they go through menopause, it can affect their bladder and their bowel, and then that can make them conscious in intimate relationships. Also, they can have breast tenderness that can not make them want to maybe be cuddled and things like that. So it can have an impact on their relationship in that sense. With children, rage can be very common and the mood changes. People can feel that they’re not being a good parent because they’re losing their temper very, very quickly. So it affects their relationship with their children. If they’ve got teenage children as well, teenage children often have that change in hormones. So you’ve got a double whammy there in terms of the mum trying to deal with her own hormonal changes and the teenagers as well. So it can make the household feel very difficult.

Maurice

Yeah, quite a very explosive environment. What about in the workplace, Hazel?

Hazel

So in the workplace, there’s been many studies actually that a lot of women will consider leaving their job because they feel that they’re not doing a good enough job anymore, often because of memory lapses and their level of focus, feeling that sense of fatigue, their energy levels are dropping, and they just don’t feel like themselves anymore. They don’t feel that, perhaps that motivation as well and that real drive. And it’s very, very difficult to feel that same passion perhaps for their job and to discuss it with their boss because they’re feeling already insecure about their job, but they don’t want to lose their job. It’s their livelihood. They’ve got to support their family. They know that they need the support, but they’re scared to talk about menopause and how it’s affecting them through fear that they might lose their job.

Maurice

Can we dive a little bit deeper into that particular thing that you mentioned about they’re scared to talk about it. And I totally get, you know, that it’s a very sensitive topic. So a lot of detail, even kind of, you know, when you were talking to me, you know, like, okay, you’re talking as a woman to a man about these things. But in a workplace, what kind of, maybe stigma, or maybe, you know, lack of support have you heard that your clients experience?

Hazel

Well, some women might work in a very male-dominated environment, for example. And then they might find it very difficult to say that they’re experiencing really severe hot flushes, and they want to be able to just step outside and get some fresh air, for example, and they don’t. But because perhaps the men don’t understand and haven’t been through it, they may think that they are just making a fuss out of nothing. They feel perhaps that they can’t ask for, you know, a fan at their desk or they feel a bit conscious about wearing a blouse and, you know, sweat marks on their blouse and that kind of thing because obviously, these symptoms can have a physical impact as well. So it can be quite stressful for people to go through that.

Maurice

Yes, that’s horrible. Now, Hazel, if you had some sort of a magic wand or unlimited funds, what kind of societal attitudes towards menopause would you change to benefit women in the UK but also globally? 

Hazel

That’s a very good question. I guess, like we’re talking about in the workplace, I think it would probably support women a bit more in that sense to feel more comfortable and to have the support perhaps, have a bit of knowledge and a bit of training in the workplace so that they know that they’re not alone, that they know that they’ve got a mentor or somebody to speak to, somebody who’s experienced in well-being and that the company, knowing that they are protected and that the company are going to listen to them and that they are going to take it seriously. So it would be helpful, I think, for everybody in companies to have a bit more of an understanding of menopause. So that kind of knowledge to know what women are going through and the struggles that are going through I think is really important. 

I also hear from husbands and partners of women, and when you’re talking to them they often have no idea, and they’re quite shocked, and I think that a lot of men are actually very willing to learn a bit more about the menopause and I think maybe even… I would hope so, yes. Absolutely and maybe even in schools as well, you know, people of school age when their mothers and things are going through it, that’s important and you know, if they grasp this early as they go through the workplace, you know, they may be a bit more sensitive to the issues that are going on and to their wives and partners. So, yeah, I think it would be really important to have much more awareness in schools and in the workplace.

Maurice

Now, if I can push you a little bit more on that, because, you know, these are great ideas and insights and, you know, those would be, I think, very good to see as a first step, but what if we could take things to ideally what it should look like? How would you paint that picture, you know, let’s say for the workplace?

Hazel

I think that there would be kind of well-being element where women were supported by coaches, by well-being coaches perhaps, that they were listened to, that they had that mentor, somebody to go to who gives them a bit more insight into how they could plan their working day to support them with nutrition and with lifestyle changes. It’ll be really, really helpful if everybody has access to a coach to support them.

Maurice

I think that’s great.

That’s exactly the kind of language I love because well-being coach would mean that you walk into a workplace, you’re a man, a woman, especially as a woman here now, and you have an environment where you can safely talk about these issues, where you can maybe work out some, I don’t know, specific solutions, you know, to specific challenges or situations, or very subtly how you can introduce changes to maybe the working times or a certain setup and so on, where the company invests in women who have that need as opposed to, okay, well, we don’t have budget, we’re not going to make budget, it sounds a little bit silly to do it, you know, like making lots of excuses that unfortunately happen in a corporate workspace. And really taking it seriously, feeling that, you know, if we don’t take care of our employees, you know, like what company do we have? And we want the women who work in our company to have that support.

Hazel

Because often, when women come to me as a coach, they don’t know what to do. They don’t know what the strategies are. They feel very helpless. They feel very overwhelmed. And they need that support. They need the underlying knowledge, and they need those strategies and just the little lifestyle tweaks that can make a huge difference to them. 

Maurice

Yes, I agree. And even just the awareness, because you have some women who have got more symptoms than others, and you also have maybe some women who just go like, “Well, don’t worry about it, we’re just going to fly by.” Some women may have it for a very short period, while others may have it really severe for very long periods. So that’s also that kind of peer pressure in a way that may happen, and I think everybody, you know, both women and men would need to have been, would benefit from that awareness so that you can incorporate it.

Hazel

Absolutely. It’s a very individual experience and the symptoms, there are so many symptoms related to menopause, and everybody experiences it differently. Like you say, some people don’t have as much of a hard time as somebody else. So I think it’s really helpful that we all support each other.

Maurice

Great. So, well, it’s a little bit kind of a brainstorm here, but you know, this should also hopefully inspire everybody watching and listening to think that there are many opportunities out there, you know, that you can explore as part of things that you are already doing. And I think that’s where there’s a nice segue here to bring the connection of Menopause Health to other areas like exercise, sleep, stress, weight management that you’ve already alluded to. 

So, how are they sort of interconnected? Where do you see those connections, Hazel?

Hazel

All massively interconnected. It is very much a holistic approach to menopause. That support network is huge. Many women absolutely thrive when they do have a support network. 

I’m noticing this in my local community at the moment. More women are gathering together to join at menopause cafes and be able to discuss what they’re going through. That can be very, very helpful. Many women are saying that sleep is a huge issue that comes up a lot. And there are many nutritional aspects that relate to sleep as well. They’re very interconnected. Also stress, as we’ve mentioned with the workplace there, is that kind of lifestyle impact of stress, so managing stress can have a big impact on symptoms as well. So it’s taking all of the aspects together to manage them and take that holistic approach. So I think as a coach, being able to really dive deeper and understand the woman that you’re coaching and her whole lifestyle and what’s going on for her is really, really important to support her with her symptomsfor sure.

Maurice

So you mentioned these cafes – I’d love to know from you what your own contribution is. Like what you’re actually doing yourself, you know, to inspire others that are listening and watching here. What’s your contribution – your gift back to the community, if you’d like? 

Hazel

So, often, people are asking me about nutritional strategies that they can do. There are many scientific strategies, for example, that are correlated with having sleep issues, having a better mood, or improve their skin. Now it’s really, really exciting that we’ve got longer-term scientific studies. There are more women involved in the study as well so they’re having much more impact. So I find it really exciting as a coach to be able to share those strategies, and there are also lots of successes all the time that are coming out. I get really excited when I see a new study and that they’re sharing a nutritional method that can be almost as effective as HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy), for example. So it’s lovely to be able to share those kinds of strategies with women because not all women will want to have HRT. They might want to take a different route. And even if they have decided to take HRT, they also want to eat healthily as well. And, of course, I will very much encourage that. So, I do love to be able to learn and then share it with other people and see them benefit from those nutritional changes.

Maurice

That’s great. I’ve got a follow-up question on that. But firstly, for those watching and listening, HRT stands for Hormone Replacement Therapy. And actually, it’s quite controversial, right? There’s a lot of unknowns when it comes to this. What is your own experience with clients?

Hazel

So it is very varied actually, as you’d expect, because everybody is very different. Everybody’s symptoms are very different. Everybody’s opinions are very different. 

So, some people are very much determined that they want to have HRT, and they can take HRT, but they don’t like the impact of HRT, and they will then want to try something else. Other people will try not to take HRT but then feel that they really want to take HRT closer that they get to menopause if their symptoms are greater. So this is before they come to me and their kind of experience with it. I’m kind of gathering that information from them about HRT. So some people absolutely swear by it, and they get on fine with it, but a lot of people that I know have many, many adjustments. 

And there are many side effects with HRT as well. A lot of people are still worried about the health implications as well – there could be some health risks related to HRT, even if they are very minimal. A lot of people’s opinions, but obviously, when I’m meeting people, they want to come to me for nutritional advice, so they still appreciate the fact that they need to be healthy as well as have HRT. They know that it’s not a quick fix and that’s not a standalone solution. They need to work on their holistic health in general.

Maurice

Exactly. It could be one of the pillars, right? You know, you need to look at things holistically. My follow-up question that I’ve parked for a month, and I’m now bringing back is related to those cafes. Do you ever use it as an opportunity to get maybe clients from those meetups?

Hazel

Absolutely. So I’ve been very, very fortunate in my local community to be invited along to lots of community groups and going along to women’s groups and talking and menopause cafes or meetings. And I’ve been very grateful to get a lot of clients from these meetings. So I’m seeing a big demand for meetups for women and that social support and it’s been very successful for me. So yeah, I’m very grateful for that and very grateful to be able to support women in this transition. 

Maurice

Well, it’s amazing what you do. Now, when it comes to client well-being, what are some of the most noticeable transformations that you’ve seen with your clients who needed your support?

Hazel

What I hear a lot across the board from women is that they are surprised at sometimes how simple little strategies can be that they can easily and achievably incorporate that make a big, big difference to their lives. 

So, energy is a big one. 

Often, a lot of women going through this transition say that they’re very, very tired. They’ve got a lot of fatigue, lack of motivation, their energy levels are on the floor. So, I see a lot of people that through these nutritional changes that they’re very, very happy about, that they’re feeling their energy, that motivation again, and they’re feeling that they’re living again, you know, like more, doing more again. You know, they’ve got the impetus to want to go out and socialise and do active things and exercise again. So yeah, that’s one of the biggest things that I see in terms of once their energy has picked up, they’re also more motivated to carry on the nutritional changes that are going to affect their mood as well, and they often go hand in hand. So yeah, I think that is a big impact.

Maurice

So Hazel, you mentioned in terms of client well-being, you know, a really crucial, noticeable transformation that you’ve seen with your clients. You had a couple more examples to share, so please continue.

Hazel

So I notice with women who come to me who want to manage their weight, they come to me and often say, “I’m trying everything, I’m eating really healthily, I’m exercising, what am I doing wrong?” 

Having studied nutrition and working with lots of women going through this transition, I can support them with many things that they can do to manage their weight. So there are some big successes, but one of the most important things I notice with women is being a bit more patient. So going through this transition, they often need to be a bit more patient with the weight management and just have that steady weight loss. It might be at a different level than they might have experienced in their 20s, for example, but it’s being very consistent with their habits, and they do see those changes, but just being a little bit more patient with it and the weight loss is a bit more steady.

Maurice

Yes, what you’re saying is that maybe when you don’t go through for example perimenopause your weight loss would be a lot quicker, but now you need to have a lot more patience because it’s going to be as quick?

Hazel

Yes, the results often aren’t as quick, but people are very happy with the results when they have the patients and give themselves six months to lose some weight and to also manage their muscle mass very quickly unless we are doing certain exercises and eating the right types of foods to manage that and then help us maintain our muscle mass.

Maurice

Wow. How do you know about that particular aspect?

Hazel

So, as a personal trainer, it has really helped me support women through menopause – and understand metabolically how our body composition can affect weight loss. So we need our muscle mass to be maintained in order to continue with that weight loss. So it’s really, really important not just to think about losing weight but also to maintain our muscle mass so that our overall body composition is more lean tissue.

Marice 

Yeah, and they say it’s almost like intact, so it’s got that longevity aspect as well, because it could be a very long period, potentially, so that you go through as a woman.

Hazel

Absolutely, so if we are losing our muscle mass from 35, you know, 40, that’s quite worrying really, isn’t it? If we’re going to live up to 85 as an average, we need to really look at our nutrition and exercise in terms of maintaining our muscle mass, and also it is correlated to our bone density. Women who are going through post-menopause are more exposed to osteoporosis, so it’s really important you know not only in terms of the way you look and weight loss but also to protect your bones and to protect your risk of diabetes as well. It’s really, really important.

Maurice

Yes, 100%. Now, if we’re thinking about your fellow health, wellness and nutrition professionals, Hazel, why do you think they should consider integrating Menopause Health into their own practice or services?

Hazel

Going back to my experience as a PT, I still work as a PT in my local community and on Zoom as well. No matter who you are as a PT, if you don’t have a specialism, you will probably have women coming to you who are going through that transition. So having that understanding is really, really important because there’s a lot of things that change. Weight loss isn’t easy as the strategies do change or can change when women are going through that transition. So I think having that understanding of what’s going on on a hormonal level is really, really important. I think that if you’re a health coach for a long period of time, for many years, you’re bound to have women come to you who are in this transition. People can go through perimenopause before 40, and this transition can last the average age of 51 to go through menopause in the UK. 

And then obviously, there’s that post-menopausal landscape as well and all the things that you need to manage there. So, the likelihood of having clients as a health coach who are going through that transition is very high. So I think it’s important to have that understanding to be able to support people.

Maurice

And where would you suggest they start? So somebody’s thinking, OK, I’m maybe a personal trainer, maybe they’re another therapist, or maybe they are a nutritional advisor, maybe they are a dietitian, you know, maybe a medical professional or nurse, it can be anybody to be quite honest, but what kind of knowledge do you think that they need, you reckon, to support their clients or patients in a safe and considerate manner?

Hazel

This is really interesting actually because there’s a huge need at the moment to support women going through menopause, but there’s a lot of courses that I personally researched that I didn’t feel had the depth of knowledge in terms of the nutritional support that I wanted to give to my clients. Having studied through The Health Sciences Academy for my Nutritional Therapy, I wanted a course like that – one that would give me a lot of depth, and a lot of science-backed information that I could share with my clients. So I would definitely advise people to get that depth of knowledge to support them.

Maurice

Yeah, because you know that we’re launching the new Menopause Health certification that’s on the 26th of January. And how do you think that will help? What’s the difference it’s going to make to their practice? Or maybe even personally as well?

Hazel

I think when clients come to you, they want to know that you have a specialism, that you have studied, that you’re highly qualified, that you understand your topic. So a certification is really, really important. 

Clients are coming to you so they can have that level of support, that level of care, that professionalism. So I think it’s really important to have a course that gives you real in-depth knowledge and also goes into that holistic health as well. Clients are going to want to talk to you about intimate issues, you know, in terms of, we talked about bladder and bowel, loss of libido, breast tenderness, all these symptoms that can go with menopause. So I think it’s really important if you’ve taken the care to go and study this topic that they know, that you have an understanding, that this may come with menopause, they may feel more comfortable talking to you about it.

Maurice

Yeah, I agree. It does remind me when I think about the different types of certification that we’ve been building over the years. And Fertility Nutrition comes to mind because that’s a really, really sensitive topic. 

Sleep even comes to mind because you start to talk about people’s very safe space and an environment that they don’t really want to talk about, the bedroom environment, what, how that’s set up and so on. So, all of these things are very subtle, but they’re related to each other as well. And he also mentioned exercise, sleep, stress, weight management, and so on. 

And that’s what I always, well, we say within The Health Science Academy is to look at things and look at what the client needs and then think about your toolkits or kind of, you know, all of the things that you would need in order to help them as opposed to thinking, oh, I just need this thing, and now I’m going to go out and help people with that because you mentioned weight management. Somebody’s been studying weight loss. Excellent. And then they come across a woman who’s going through maybe perimenopause and then figuring, well, that’s not quite working, right? And I expected more of a weight loss, and why is that not happening? 

So it’s just kind of that awareness that I think you’re referring to, right? To have a number of different things so you have a better appreciation what that female client may be going through. 

Hazel

Definitely. For example, if you’re a personal trainer and you’ve been training someone for quite a long time and then suddenly they’re dipping in energy, and they don’t have the motivation. Having that understanding of menopause and how you can help them with some nutrition tools as well to support them with their energy can be really helpful. Also understanding that they might have some nutritional deficiencies as well because their hormonal landscape has changed. So all of these things give you the confidence and the tools to be able to help them in that way.

Maurice

Now, whilst you said that, I sort of imagined having your client in front of you and you think, “Hold on, something’s not quite right.” 

How do you start the topic of menopause with that client?

Hazel

Often when I get inquiries, they will start that topic with me. So when I’m doing my marketing, I very much put it out there that it is my speciality, so it’s on my social media that I am a peri and menopause and postmenopause coach. People already know they can come to me and say I’m facing. So that makes it an easier conversation when you already tell people that that’s your specialism. 

Maurice

I think that’s a very good suggestion. So you kind of just put extra emphasis in terms of saying, okay I also like Menopause Health, blah, blah, blah. And so the people are aware, oh, it’s not just weight loss, not just fitness, it’s not just maybe sleep or stress management. They’re also looking at this. That’s actually something that I might be going through. 

So you think it’s easier to let people know, and then they start the conversation as opposed to you starting the conversation.

Hazel

Yeah, I think that it’s definitely helpful to list it on your social media and your website to help people come to you, but I might also approach groups and say that I’m interested in coming along to a talk. So, yeah, it’s just being out there in the community and being open about those conversations. But I think for many more people, it’s a real taboo topic. Slowly people are now willing to talk about it a bit more in the female community. There’s still a long way to go, but I am noticing that shift, particularly as there’s been more media coverage now. So people will have that conversation with you. 

I was also mentioning as a PT, when you’re seeing somebody week-to-week, you’re generally asking them about their weekend, about their family life, that kind of thing. So they are talking to you a lot about life. And when they’re going through stresses or difficulties, they tend to share those things with you. So it’s helpful to know that and be able to support them.

Maurice

Now Hazel, I’ve got one more question for you – what is your key message that you would like to share with women about menopause?

Hazel

So I think that often, when people are first experiencing symptoms of menopause, it can feel very overwhelming, it can feel very negative, and the symptoms can be very unpleasant. It’s actually a big opportunity to re-look at your life, to refocus, to streamline your life and to hand-pick, cherry-pick the life that you want going forward that is very much health-focused and well-being-focused. Women can really thrive going through menopause, particularly with nutritional support, social support, lifestyle strategies, I think opening up and talking about things and having the right coaching and knowledge can be really, really helpful. And I see a lot of women, you know, really taking the bull by the horns and thinking, “OK, there are some challenges, but actually I’m going to be a lot stronger for this experience.” It gives them more resilience; it allows them to know themselves better and to live life more to the full, to really analyse what they want in life, and to manage their health because I think going through that transition, you do feel a bit more delicate, you know, you do realise that life isn’t forever. We do need to look after our health. So I think that’s a great opportunity to really embrace well-being so much more. And I think women benefit from embracing that.

Maurice

I love that. I think it’s a very nice way to put it, Hazel. And I also think, based on what you said, based on what we’ve learned over the years, there’s a huge growth in professional opportunities in this space as you’ve seen yourself. 

So, let me take this opportunity to say a huge thank you from us for sharing your excellent insights with us. And in a way, I feel the role in this mind-blowing journey to learn more about perimenopause, menopause, and postmenopause. So I’m actually looking forward to the upcoming launch of the Menopause Health-related training – and bringing what is not just generic know-how but really needed, required know-how to the world to make a difference.

In the meantime, we are planning another interview with no other than Alex Ruani, Chief Science Educator here at The Health Sciences Academy and Doctoral Researcher at University College London. And that’s a nice taster for what you can expect on the LIVE webinar on the 26th of January. So that’s, you know, for those thinking about, ooh, what’s going to happen next? That is going to be in your diary, I hope. The 26th of January is the LIVE webinar. 

Again, a huge thank you, Hazel. And everyone – do keep asking your questions via email, online, because we love them. And what we do is we actually incorporate these questions into our knowledge-sharing sessions with you, like what we did today. So thank you very much. Bye for now. Until the next session. Thank you.